Comments for Shaping our Identity http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com Conversations shaping Churches of Christ in Australia Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:35:57 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Lynette Leach http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-131 Lynette Leach Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:35:57 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-131 I appreciate the challenges contained in Kim's thought-provoking essay. The comments in response reflect the diversity of thought within our movement and beyond. I thought it worth mentioning that UNOH is not a parachurch organisation. It is a missional order and is an affiliated agency with the Conference of Churches of Christ in Vic-Tas. One of its strengths is its relationship with a wider body, which does not control the way that UNOH functions but provides a supportive base and accountability within its structures. The large attendance at the recent Richard Rohr seminars and the book launch of Athol Gill's 'Life on the Road', at which Kim Thoday spoke, speaks of the ecumenical breadth of UNOH's network and the influence it has on so many active, committed Christians who want to make a difference in the world by serving the poor and marginalised wherever they are. Thanks for the opportunity to contribute. I appreciate the challenges contained in Kim’s thought-provoking essay. The comments in response reflect the diversity of thought within our movement and beyond. I thought it worth mentioning that UNOH is not a parachurch organisation. It is a missional order and is an affiliated agency with the Conference of Churches of Christ in Vic-Tas. One of its strengths is its relationship with a wider body, which does not control the way that UNOH functions but provides a supportive base and accountability within its structures. The large attendance at the recent Richard Rohr seminars and the book launch of Athol Gill’s ‘Life on the Road’, at which Kim Thoday spoke, speaks of the ecumenical breadth of UNOH’s network and the influence it has on so many active, committed Christians who want to make a difference in the world by serving the poor and marginalised wherever they are. Thanks for the opportunity to contribute.

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Kim Thoday http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-35 Kim Thoday Sat, 16 May 2009 14:10:45 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-35 Hi all, Thanks for your encouragement. I got back on Tuesday from the UNOH open night and seminar. Thanks a heap Jim for all your organising and hospitality. I felt the response was good for my part and especially for Mick and Ruby Duncan. Thanks also to Mark for the invitation to contributre to these Bi-cententary essays. I fear it is obvious that my offering was "theology on the run." I have been burning the midnight oil with the re-publication of Athol Gill's Life on Road (by the way, Merridie Costello has been a wonderful editor) and since the conclusion of a 12 year ministry at Hewett in SA, my life has been in some upheaval - not least 'being there' for my mother Janet, who has been living with cancer. I would appreciate your prayers for Janet (she is the youngest daughter of the late H.R Coventry - C of C missionary to India; late last year I had to give the eulogy at his eldest daughter's funeral: Mrs Margaret Goninon, nee Coventry). My grand father, H. R Coventry, did not of course have the missional language that is at our disposal today. Yet like prophetic activists of all era's, despite the reality of cultural captivity, his experience of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ propelled him into a life and ministry of deep incarnation. He worked and lived amongst a despised criminal caste in Southern India. My essay is a celebration of those - often too few - who recognise that the call of the Jesus is to submerge ourselves deeply into cultures and neighbourhoods with the values of the Gospel. This is an explicity Christian vision of social justice. It is a spiritual vision that emerges from the Gospels and from lived experience alongside the most vulnerable and wounded ones. It is a spiritual vision that sees Christ most profoundly in the experience of the poor. It is a vision that knows that a person suffering injustice or abuse or abject poverty is a sacrament. If we do not know this deeply, we know very little and we likely don't know love. Jim Wallis once said: Jesus Christ is God made poor. Shalom, Kim Thoday Hi all,

Thanks for your encouragement. I got back on Tuesday from the UNOH open night and seminar. Thanks a heap Jim for all your organising and hospitality. I felt the response was good for my part and especially for Mick and Ruby Duncan.

Thanks also to Mark for the invitation to contributre to these Bi-cententary essays. I fear it is obvious that my offering was “theology on the run.” I have been burning the midnight oil with the re-publication of Athol Gill’s Life on Road (by the way, Merridie Costello has been a wonderful editor) and since the conclusion of a 12 year ministry at Hewett in SA, my life has been in some upheaval – not least ‘being there’ for my mother Janet, who has been living with cancer. I would appreciate your prayers for Janet (she is the youngest daughter of the late H.R Coventry – C of C missionary to India; late last year I had to give the eulogy at his eldest daughter’s funeral: Mrs Margaret Goninon, nee Coventry).

My grand father, H. R Coventry, did not of course have the missional language that is at our disposal today. Yet like prophetic activists of all era’s, despite the reality of cultural captivity, his experience of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ propelled him into a life and ministry of deep incarnation. He worked and lived amongst a despised criminal caste in Southern India.

My essay is a celebration of those – often too few – who recognise that the call of the Jesus is to submerge ourselves deeply into cultures and neighbourhoods with the values of the Gospel. This is an explicity Christian vision of social justice. It is a spiritual vision that emerges from the Gospels and from lived experience alongside the most vulnerable and wounded ones. It is a spiritual vision that sees Christ most profoundly in the experience of the poor. It is a vision that knows that a person suffering injustice or abuse or abject poverty is a sacrament. If we do not know this deeply, we know very little and we likely don’t know love.

Jim Wallis once said: Jesus Christ is God made poor.

Shalom,

Kim Thoday

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Harold Hayward http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-33 Harold Hayward Sat, 09 May 2009 02:06:00 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-33 “If I give all my possession to the poor…..” Paul I’ve read Kim’s extensive dissertation several times and remain perplexed by aspects of it. He doesn’t really explain terms like “social justice” and “social action” or how they are related, accepts dubious forms of social protest uncritically, and in the pursuit of a radical agenda generally deals unsympathetically with our history, our leaders and our structures I take social justice to refer to equality of opportunity and distributive and procedural fairness within society. In simple terms, social justice refers to maximizing the opportunities for individuals to benefit from the “goodies” that society can provide. The scope of social justice is enormous involving an understanding of politics and economics. In this electronic age, the problems involved are beyond the competence of local churches and are unlikely to be resolved in the social ghettos of Bangkok or Melbourne. To say that, is not to free us from the obligation of attempting reform, or to denigrate the efforts of those who labour in such situations. We need multiple approaches to social justice, including the ballot box and the law. Social action is action taken by individuals or groups to change, typically by overt forms of protest, the existing social conditions. But not all social action is concerned with social justice. Quite the contrary, some social action is quite self serving and some forms of it are illegal. Action for social justice is not necessarily best delivered by counter-cultures, as fashionable as they may be. I’m not sure that telling the group which contributes most to our churches that they’ve got it all wrong is the way to grow churches or sustain the impetus for social change. There ought to be no conflict between evangelism and social justice. There can be no true concept of “rightness” in society without an appreciation of the righteousness of God, and social justice which is not rooted in a sense of personal and social redemption is humanism. An understanding of God’s love, his righteousness and the nature of redemption involve theology. I therefore view with concern the assertion that the new generation sees “former theological debates as no more than games played in the comfortable lounge rooms of men’s heads”. So they have the answers? There is much more that really needs to be said about this issue but this is not place. I accept that these are disturbing and difficult times and that radical approaches might be required. UNOH may be part of the answer and I am delighted that through Global Mission Partners, Churches of Christ contribute significantly to their programs. Between 1/7/2007 and 30/4/2008 Global Mission Partners contributed over $165, 000 to their work. This represents a significant segment of GMP’s budget and reflects enormous confidence by our communion in a parachurch organization over which it exercises little control. In this bicentenary year when the emphasis is on achievement, I would like to acknowledge the contributions made by thousands of our members over the years in the areas of social justice, welfare and care. Regularly I read in our newsletters and journals of people doing remarkable things in difficult circumstances with few resources. Frankly, I think that in these areas we have punched above our weight as a communion. We’ve made mistakes and reflection is helpful. But no generation is completely free from the social context which frames it. In those circumstances, arrogance on anybody’s part is not appropriate. H.E.Hayward “If I give all my possession to the poor…..” Paul

I’ve read Kim’s extensive dissertation several times and remain perplexed by aspects of it. He doesn’t really explain terms like “social justice” and “social action” or how they are related, accepts dubious forms of social protest uncritically, and in the pursuit of a radical agenda generally deals unsympathetically with our history, our leaders and our structures

I take social justice to refer to equality of opportunity and distributive and procedural fairness within society. In simple terms, social justice refers to maximizing the opportunities for individuals to benefit from the “goodies” that society can provide. The scope of social justice is enormous involving an understanding of politics and economics. In this electronic age, the problems involved are beyond the competence of local churches and are unlikely to be resolved in the social ghettos of Bangkok or Melbourne. To say that, is not to free us from the obligation of attempting reform, or to denigrate the efforts of those who labour in such situations. We need multiple approaches to social justice, including the ballot box and the law.

Social action is action taken by individuals or groups to change, typically by overt forms of protest, the existing social conditions. But not all social action is concerned with social justice. Quite the contrary, some social action is quite self serving and some forms of it are illegal. Action for social justice is not necessarily best delivered by counter-cultures, as fashionable as they may be. I’m not sure that telling the group which contributes most to our churches that they’ve got it all wrong is the way to grow churches or sustain the impetus for social change.

There ought to be no conflict between evangelism and social justice. There can be no true concept of “rightness” in society without an appreciation of the righteousness of God, and social justice which is not rooted in a sense of personal and social redemption is humanism. An understanding of God’s love, his righteousness and the nature of redemption involve theology. I therefore view with concern the assertion that the new generation sees “former theological debates as no more than games played in the comfortable lounge rooms of men’s heads”. So they have the answers?

There is much more that really needs to be said about this issue but this is not place. I accept that these are disturbing and difficult times and that radical approaches might be required. UNOH may be part of the answer and I am delighted that through Global Mission Partners, Churches of Christ contribute significantly to their programs. Between 1/7/2007 and 30/4/2008 Global Mission Partners contributed over $165, 000 to their work. This represents a significant segment of GMP’s budget and reflects enormous confidence by our communion in a parachurch organization over which it exercises little control.

In this bicentenary year when the emphasis is on achievement, I would like to acknowledge the contributions made by thousands of our members over the years in the areas of social justice, welfare and care. Regularly I read in our newsletters and journals of people doing remarkable things in difficult circumstances with few resources. Frankly, I think that in these areas we have punched above our weight as a communion. We’ve made mistakes and reflection is helpful. But no generation is completely free from the social context which frames it. In those circumstances, arrogance on anybody’s part is not appropriate.

H.E.Hayward

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by wonderingpilgrim http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-32 wonderingpilgrim Thu, 07 May 2009 08:15:10 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-32 It just occurred to me that some may read my "consistency" comment as a slur on Alexander Campbell. I hasten to add that reading historical context makes all the difference. Emancipating one's slaves acquired as part of a gift of land was fraught with risk and danger, not so much for the owner, but for the freed slave who now suddenly has freedom but no secure and supportive network. Consequently abolitionists like Campbell would have been in a double bind - how to be accountable to members of their household (including those held in bondage) while working for societal change. Seems to me we face similar binds all the time. This is why we need the clarion call of the prophets of social justice to keep us awake and alert to how we work with the inconsistencies of daily life. It just occurred to me that some may read my “consistency” comment as a slur on Alexander Campbell. I hasten to add that reading historical context makes all the difference. Emancipating one’s slaves acquired as part of a gift of land was fraught with risk and danger, not so much for the owner, but for the freed slave who now suddenly has freedom but no secure and supportive network. Consequently abolitionists like Campbell would have been in a double bind – how to be accountable to members of their household (including those held in bondage) while working for societal change.
Seems to me we face similar binds all the time. This is why we need the clarion call of the prophets of social justice to keep us awake and alert to how we work with the inconsistencies of daily life.

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by wonderingpilgrim http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-31 wonderingpilgrim Thu, 07 May 2009 07:43:36 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-31 Great conversation, folks, keep it rolling! Social Justice has always been a hot potato for us. I guess it was for Amos and Isaiah and a few others, including our founders. It's just as well consistency isn't one of our underpinning virtues. Campbell was a slave owner who nevertheless advocated the abolition of slavery. He opposed women's suffrage but supported free public education for all, particularly women. He defended capital punishment but was an ardent pacifist. And we, amongst the world's richest, respond with varying degrees of passion and angst to the call of the poor. Thank God for our modern day Amos's and Isaiah's and James's who are courageous in costly ways to keep our noses oriented to the road of discipleship winding its way through the messiest and darkest areas of human experience. Great conversation, folks, keep it rolling!
Social Justice has always been a hot potato for us. I guess it was for Amos and Isaiah and a few others, including our founders. It’s just as well consistency isn’t one of our underpinning virtues. Campbell was a slave owner who nevertheless advocated the abolition of slavery. He opposed women’s suffrage but supported free public education for all, particularly women. He defended capital punishment but was an ardent pacifist.
And we, amongst the world’s richest, respond with varying degrees of passion and angst to the call of the poor. Thank God for our modern day Amos’s and Isaiah’s and James’s who are courageous in costly ways to keep our noses oriented to the road of discipleship winding its way through the messiest and darkest areas of human experience.

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Mark Riessen http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-28 Mark Riessen Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:01:36 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-28 Knowing Kim I wouldn't be surprised if he had checked out Brian's book. When I first saw the title I suspected there may be some theme within it (as shocking as the title is) about being a blessing to others. What is profoundly disturbing still is the belief that Christians need more money in order to make a difference and address the needs of the marginalized, outcast and needy. I've never encountered such rubbish! You don't read about Jesus coaching his disciples on developing a grand business plan so they can get rich and help the poor. I suspect that the more people think they need money to help people the less inclined they are to engage in community, and I don't mean the nice pleasant Sunday afternoon picnic with close friends community I mean the dirty and messy, unpredictable reality of doing life with those who need people to sit with them in the muck, journey with them in the pain and stand with them on issues of injustice. That's true social justice the way Jesus calls us to it, not engaging is some self help get rich quick sheme because God wants you to be rich to help people! What rubbish. The most effective people I know who have helped the poor and made systemic changes in systems of oppression, have not done it because they have money, in fact some people have renounced money and chosen poverty so they have the credibility to truely journey with people. I agree some people have the gift of giving and if they have money to give that's great, but to put out a book telling people that everyone needs to make money in order to change the world is riddiculous and misleading. Social change comes from the heart not the wallet Knowing Kim I wouldn’t be surprised if he had checked out Brian’s book. When I first saw the title I suspected there may be some theme within it (as shocking as the title is) about being a blessing to others.
What is profoundly disturbing still is the belief that Christians need more money in order to make a difference and address the needs of the marginalized, outcast and needy. I’ve never encountered such rubbish! You don’t read about Jesus coaching his disciples on developing a grand business plan so they can get rich and help the poor.
I suspect that the more people think they need money to help people the less inclined they are to engage in community, and I don’t mean the nice pleasant Sunday afternoon picnic with close friends community I mean the dirty and messy, unpredictable reality of doing life with those who need people to sit with them in the muck, journey with them in the pain and stand with them on issues of injustice. That’s true social justice the way Jesus calls us to it, not engaging is some self help get rich quick sheme because God wants you to be rich to help people! What rubbish.
The most effective people I know who have helped the poor and made systemic changes in systems of oppression, have not done it because they have money, in fact some people have renounced money and chosen poverty so they have the credibility to truely journey with people.
I agree some people have the gift of giving and if they have money to give that’s great, but to put out a book telling people that everyone needs to make money in order to change the world is riddiculous and misleading.
Social change comes from the heart not the wallet

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Dave http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-27 Dave Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:11:29 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-27 Hi, great article. One minor point though: have you actually read Brian Houston's book 'You need more money?' I find that most people who comment on it have not read it and judge it by the title. His entire premise is that God wants us to be a blessing to others and to be able to exact His mission on this earth, and to that effect, we all need 'more money' not for ourselves ,but so that we can be in a position to fund the cause of Christ and social justice. Most people assume from the title that the book is all about how we need more money for ourselves, and God is going to do that for us. It's still a terribly written book, but the premise is not that bad in my opinion. Hi, great article. One minor point though: have you actually read Brian Houston’s book ‘You need more money?’ I find that most people who comment on it have not read it and judge it by the title. His entire premise is that God wants us to be a blessing to others and to be able to exact His mission on this earth, and to that effect, we all need ‘more money’ not for ourselves ,but so that we can be in a position to fund the cause of Christ and social justice.

Most people assume from the title that the book is all about how we need more money for ourselves, and God is going to do that for us.

It’s still a terribly written book, but the premise is not that bad in my opinion.

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Jim Reiher http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-26 Jim Reiher Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:31:11 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-26 A terrific article thanks! If you want to hear more from Kim and engage in a conversation with him, (in Victoria), then come along to UNOH's new headquarters on Wednesday night 6th May. Kim is our guest to lead a discussion and dialogue on the theme of "Life on the Discipleship Road". There will be plenty of time for questions and discussion. UNOH - Urban Neighbours of Hope is hosting it. Our admin center is 6-12 Airlie Avenue Dandenong. The night starts either at 6.30 for a common meal (if you come for that please bring a plate to share), or 7.30 for the discussion conversation proper. It is all over by about 9.00 - then we often hang around and have a cuppa and talk some more! No charge, (we do take up a very laid back offering - it is so laid back that sometimes we forget to take it up at all). Love to see heaps there! Jim Reiher UNOH training. 0425-752358 A terrific article thanks!

If you want to hear more from Kim and engage in a conversation with him, (in Victoria), then come along to UNOH’s new headquarters on Wednesday night 6th May. Kim is our guest to lead a discussion and dialogue on the theme of “Life on the Discipleship Road”. There will be plenty of time for questions and discussion.

UNOH – Urban Neighbours of Hope is hosting it. Our admin center is 6-12 Airlie Avenue Dandenong. The night starts either at 6.30 for a common meal (if you come for that please bring a plate to share), or 7.30 for the discussion conversation proper. It is all over by about 9.00 – then we often hang around and have a cuppa and talk some more!

No charge, (we do take up a very laid back offering – it is so laid back that sometimes we forget to take it up at all).

Love to see heaps there!
Jim Reiher
UNOH training.
0425-752358

]]> Comment on The Return of the Prodigal Son: Social Justice and Churches of Christ by Mark Riessen http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-24 Mark Riessen Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:36:42 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-social-justice-and-churches-of-christ/#comment-24 Thankyou so much Kim for provocing us to be true to our call. As you know I hold Ash and Ian in high regard for their commitment to the poor and marginalized. Ian was a great support to my ministry at Blackwood for the past 2 years and he will be greatly missed. I have been criticised in the past for my commitment to social action as a minister of a church. I have been told quite plainly by church members and leaders alike that we have no business delving deep into matters of political and social justice issues. This however has just made me more determined in advocating for the rights of asylum seekers, seeking out the marginalized and serving the poor. I have found that this has brought new life and meaning into the life of the majority, in the churches I have been a part of. I am fortunate that the current church I am serving in embraces social action as part of what they understand is their call in following Jesus. It's interesting you mention the movers and shakers of the church growth movement in the USA like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren. When I was in the States a couple of years ago I found that many churches I visited (many of them mega-churches) were embracing social justice as 'new' core business. Is this just another flavour of the month or is it really a culture change in our movement? Rick Warren as many may know by now, in an interview a couple of years ago confessed his sin of ignoring the more that 2000 verses in the bible that advocated for the poor. Now, it seems, everyone is jumping on board for the social justice shift, which is great if it is a genuine conviction of the heart for the church to truely stand in solidarity with the poor, because it comes at a cost. It's interesting you mention the gathering together of churches for a common cause. Recently in Blackwood, 15 chuch congregations (including ours) from as small as 30 members to as large as 500 members, from the far right of the penticostal persuasion to the far left conservative, we have pulled our resources to open up a ministry that will engage the most marginalized and poor in our community and serve alongside them together. What a fantastic celebration of the essence of our movement, where denominational barriers are broken down Christians are working together for a common good in their local community where the prodigal has returned, social justice in no longer a dirty word but has come to reside in the centre of our conversations among our churches and has been the motivating factor for our unity. Thankyou so much Kim for provocing us to be true to our call. As you know I hold Ash and Ian in high regard for their commitment to the poor and marginalized. Ian was a great support to my ministry at Blackwood for the past 2 years and he will be greatly missed.
I have been criticised in the past for my commitment to social action as a minister of a church. I have been told quite plainly by church members and leaders alike that we have no business delving deep into matters of political and social justice issues. This however has just made me more determined in advocating for the rights of asylum seekers, seeking out the marginalized and serving the poor. I have found that this has brought new life and meaning into the life of the majority, in the churches I have been a part of.
I am fortunate that the current church I am serving in embraces social action as part of what they understand is their call in following Jesus.
It’s interesting you mention the movers and shakers of the church growth movement in the USA like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren. When I was in the States a couple of years ago I found that many churches I visited (many of them mega-churches) were embracing social justice as ‘new’ core business. Is this just another flavour of the month or is it really a culture change in our movement? Rick Warren as many may know by now, in an interview a couple of years ago confessed his sin of ignoring the more that 2000 verses in the bible that advocated for the poor. Now, it seems, everyone is jumping on board for the social justice shift, which is great if it is a genuine conviction of the heart for the church to truely stand in solidarity with the poor, because it comes at a cost.
It’s interesting you mention the gathering together of churches for a common cause. Recently in Blackwood, 15 chuch congregations (including ours) from as small as 30 members to as large as 500 members, from the far right of the penticostal persuasion to the far left conservative, we have pulled our resources to open up a ministry that will engage the most marginalized and poor in our community and serve alongside them together. What a fantastic celebration of the essence of our movement, where denominational barriers are broken down Christians are working together for a common good in their local community where the prodigal has returned, social justice in no longer a dirty word but has come to reside in the centre of our conversations among our churches and has been the motivating factor for our unity.

]]> Comment on Does baptism by immersion still shape our identity? by Rodney Anderson http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/does-baptism-by-emersion-still-shape-our-identity/#comment-23 Rodney Anderson Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:54:53 +0000 http://shapingidentity.wordpress.com/?p=74#comment-23 My Brothers, Perhaps we are asking the wrong question. Does Christ define our identity? Are we disciples of his, or not? I have never personally spoken with anyone who denied that Christ commanded baptism in Mt 28.18-20. So, regardless of what we understand to be the meaning of baptism, those who do not baptize and teach the new disciple to obey are themselves disobeying Christ and those who continue to disobey for whatever reason are habitually disobeying Christ. The second half of the commandment to make disciples is to teach them to obey all that Christ commanded. If then, we have not been baptized, or are not baptizing those who would be disciples we need to enter that process of learning to obey ourselves and repent in obedient submission to Jesus Christ as our Lord. May the Lord help each one of us individually and as Christ's church to imitate Jesus and not the religious world around us. I would remind us all that (Rev 19:10) that the spirit of prophecy IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS. May God bless us all! My Brothers,
Perhaps we are asking the wrong question. Does Christ define our identity? Are we disciples of his, or not? I have never personally spoken with anyone who denied that Christ commanded baptism in Mt 28.18-20. So, regardless of what we understand to be the meaning of baptism, those who do not baptize and teach the new disciple to obey are themselves disobeying Christ and those who continue to disobey for whatever reason are habitually disobeying Christ.
The second half of the commandment to make disciples is to teach them to obey all that Christ commanded. If then, we have not been baptized, or are not baptizing those who would be disciples we need to enter that process of learning to obey ourselves and repent in obedient submission to Jesus Christ as our Lord. May the Lord help each one of us individually and as Christ’s church to imitate Jesus and not the religious world around us.
I would remind us all that (Rev 19:10) that the spirit of prophecy IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS. May God bless us all!

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